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WASHINGTON – Former Vice President Mike Pence’s refusal to single-handedly reject electoral votes on Jan. 6, 2021, as former President Donald Trump pressured him to do, will be the subject of the Thursday House hearing investigating the Capitol attack.
The latest:
- Pence: electoral count rejection ‘illegal’: Marc Short, chief of staff to former Vice President Mike Pence, says Pence told former President Donald Trump “many times” that any plan to have Pence reject electoral votes was illegal.
- Federal judge: Trump’s order would have been ‘tantamount to revolution’: Federal Judge J. Michael Luttig told the Jan. 6 Committee that had Pence obeyed orders from Trump on Jan. 6, declaring Trump the presidential election winner, it would have “plunged America” into what he says would’ve been “tantamount to a revolution within a constitutional crisis.”
- The vice president ‘cannot possibly’ choose the president: Greg Jacob, counsel to Pence, said that while the Electoral Count Act includes “ambiguous” text, “common sense and structure would tell you” that it “cannot possibly be” that a vice president would have the authority to choose the U.S. president under the Constitution.
- Hannity ‘very worried: ‘Fox News’ Sean Hannity told White House chief of staff Mark Meadows in text messages of his concerns around Jan. 6. On Dec. 31, he wrote, “I do NOT see January 6 happening the way he is being told.” And on Jan. 5, he texted that he was “very worried about the next 48 hours.”
- An intense effort to lean on Pence: Rep. Pete Aguilar said the Jan. 6 committee found that by Jan. 4, Trump had “engaged in a quote multi-week campaign to pressure the Vice President to decide the outcome of the election.” It involved private conversations, a meeting with Congress and tweets from the president.
- Trump lawyer John Eastman’s strategy: Eastman “acknowledged” that his proposals would violate provisions of the Electoral Count Act, Pence’s former legal counsel Greg Jacobs said, adding that Eastman thought this was OK because he viewed the act as unconstitutional.
What to expect out of today’s hearing:Trump raised millions to fight election fraud before Jan. 6. Here’s how that money was spent.
Eastman flipped whether Pence should reject electors on the eve of Jan. 6
On the eve of the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, John Eastman flipped on whether Pence should carry out his debunked legal theory that the vice president could reject electoral votes submitted by states.
Jacob said Eastman, in a Jan. 4 meeting, recommended that Pence not execute the strategy, only to suddenly change his position one day later.
“I’m here to request that you reject the electors in the disputed states,” Eastman said on Jan. 5, according to Jacob’s account.
The flip came as Trump ramped up his pressure campaign against Pence to reject the election results. In a tweet that same day, Trump falsely said that Pence has the theory to “reject fraudulently chosen electors.”
– Joey Garrison
Committee: Trump ‘dialed up’ pressure on Pence as Jan. 6 approached
As part of its multi-media presentation, the committee played a series of videos demonstrating how Trump applied the screws to Vice President Pence as the counting of electoral votes approached.
At a politically rally on Jan. 4, 2021, Trump told screaming supporters he hoped Pence “comes through for us” and throws out electoral votes – a video the committee played twice.
While calling Pence “a great guy,” Trump pointedly added that: “Of course, if he doesn’t come through, I won’t like him as much.”
Around the same time, aides like Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman made public statement in which they urged Pence to act, even though they knew the vice president lacked the legal authority over the casting of electoral votes.
Two days after Trump’s rally, Pence again made clear he would not carry out the president’s demands – and the attack on the U.S. Capitol took place.
Trump “dialed up the pressure as Jan. 6. approached,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar, D-Calif., a committee member.
– David Jackson
Pence “never budged” in position that he could not overturn the election
When Pence was first introduced to Eastman’s theory that he could reject electors, his “first instinct was that there was no way any one person” could have that power, according to Pence’s former legal counsel, Greg Jacob.
Marc Short, former Chief of Staff to Pence, told the Jan. 6 committee that Pence was “very consistent” in making clear he could not overturn the election to Trump.
Asked if Pence ever wavered in his position, Jacob said, “The Vice President never budged from the position I had described as his first instinct, which was that it just made no sense from everything that he knew and had studied about our Constitution, that one kind of person would have that kind of authority.”
– Kenneth Tran
Congressman, witness point to Al Gore’s acceptance of his loss in 2000
Stakeholders pointed to how then-Vice President Al Gore presided over the electoral count in the 2000 presidential election he lost to George W. Bush without raising any questions or objections about the process.
“He never suggested that he could simply declare himself the winner of the 2000 election when he presided over the counting of the electoral votes,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar, D-Calif.
Greg Jacob, Pence’s former counsel, said he explained to Trump lawyer John Eastman: “Back in 2000 you weren’t jumping up and saying that Al Gore had the authority to do this. You would not want Kamala Harris to be able to have that kind of authority in 2024, when I hope Republicans win the election.”
– Erin Mansfield
Paul Ryan: Pence doesn’t have ‘any greater authority’ over results
Former Pence Chief of Staff Marc Short testified that former House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Ill., spoke to both himself and Pence about the joint committee, and all were in agreement that the vice president has no greater authority over election results.
Short also told the committee that Pence consulted with former GOP Vice President Dan Quayle, who agreed with Pence that the role in the joint session is purely ceremonial, not authoritative.
– Katherine Swartz
Luttig: Eastman’s scheme ‘constitutional mischief’
Retired federal appeals judge Michael Luttig told the panel former President Donald Trump’s advisers got “wrapped around the axle” by lawyer John Eastman’s historical evidence about the vice president’s role in counting Electoral College votes.
But Greg Jacob, Pence’s counsel, said no vice president in 230 years of the country’s history acted as Eastman proposed. Luttig said he would have tried to prevent Thomas Jefferson, John Adams or Richard Nixon from following Eastman’s plan.
“I would have laid my body across the road before I would have let the vice president overturn the 2020 election on the basis of that historical precedent,” Luttig said. “This is constitutional mischief.”
– Bart Jansen
Eastman didn’t believe his own debunked legal theory, committee says
John Eastman, Trump’s attorney who pushed the false notion that Pence could decide the winner of the 2020 election, didn’t believe the theory would hold up in the Supreme Court, according to testimony from Pence legal counsel Greg Jacob.
Eastman acknowledged to Jacob before Jan. 6 that the nation’s high country would likely reject the theory by a 9-0 vote, Jacob recalled.
“Dr. Eastman never really believed his own theory,” said Rep. Pete Aguilar, D-Calif, one of the House committee members.
– Joey Garrison
Sean Hannity ‘very worried’ in the hours before insurrection
The committee is presenting reams of evidence that people very close to Trump were very dubious about the idea that Pence could simply award the election to him – and worried about the ramifications.
Fox News host Sean Hannity, for example, sent White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows a series of tweets reflecting concerns that the White House legal team might resign over Trump’s pressure on Pence.
“I’m very worried about the next 48 hours,” Hannity texted on Jan. 5, 2021, a day before the insurrection.
– David Jackson
Giuliani privately admitted Pence couldn’t overturn election before speaking at Jan 6 rally
In a deposition, former Trump impeachment lawyer Eric Herschmann described a call between him and Rudy Giuliani on the morning of Jan. 6.
“We had an intellectual discussion about Eastman’s – I don’t know if it’s Eastman’s theory per se but the VP’s role and he was asking me my view, analysis, and other practical implications of it.” said Herschmann. “And when we finished, he said like I believe you’re probably right.”
“I think he thought, were it done, it was something he’d have to consider if he was sitting on the bench. But he’d probably come down on that and you know, couldn’t interpret it or sustain the argument long term.”
Hours later, Giuliani spoke at the ellipse to Jan. 6 protestors, telling them “Every single thing that has been outlined, as the plan for today, is perfectly legal.”
– Kenneth Tran
Herschmann: “You’re going to cause riots in the streets”
Trump’s counsel John Eastman told White House counsel Eric Herschmann he saw ambiguities within the 12th Amendment that allowed Pence to stop the certification of votes, thus deciding who would be the next president.
“Are you out of your f’ing mind?” Herschmann said to Eastman, saying voters wouldn’t tolerate this and it would cause riots in the streets.
In response, Eastman told Herschmann that there’s been a history of violence in the country to protect democracy and the republic, so it was necessary for Pence to not certify election results.
– Katherine Swartz
Advisors said Pence did not have power Trump claimed
Advisors to President Donald Trump were aware that Vice President Pence did not have the power to overturn the results of the 2020 election, witnesses told the Jan. 6 committee.
Marc Short, Pence’s chief of staff, said White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows told him “a couple times” before Jan. 6, 2021 that Pence didn’t have the power. Short added, “Mark had told so many people so many different things that it was not necessarily something that I would accept as, ‘OK, that’s resolved.’”
Jason Miller, an aide to Trump, said White House Counsel Pat Cipillone thought the plan to have Pence affect the election “was nutty and at one point had confronted (Trump lawyer John) Eastman basically with the same.”
– Erin Mansfield
‘No idea more un-American’: Pence lawyers says historic precedence, text refuted Trump scheme to reject results
Greg Jacob, former legal counsel for Pence, said he and other attorneys reviewed the text of the Constitution,the intent of founding fathers and historic precedent, determining the vice president has no authority to choose the next president.
“There is almost no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person would choose the American President,” Jacob said.
Jacob said no vice president in 230 years ever claimed to have such a power that the vice president can reject the electoral votes submitted by states.
Jacob recounted what he told Jon Eastman, the attorney pushing the theory to Trump: “If you were right, don’t you think Al Gore might have liked to have known in 2000 that he had authority to just declare himself president of the United States?”-
– Joey Garrison
Luttig: “The language of the 12th amendment is that simple”
After long testimony, Senior Investigative Counsel John Wood asked retired Federal Judge Michael Luttig if the 12th amendment was as complicated as John Eastman, made it out to be.
“Judge Luttig, at the risk of oversimplifying for the non-lawyers who are watching,” said Wood. “Is it fair to say that the 12th amendment basically says two things happen: the vice president opens the certificates and the electoral votes are counted. Is it that straightforward?”
“The language of the 12th amendment is that simple,” said Luttig.
– Kenneth Tran
Luttig: Vice President Pence had no power to strike down electoral votes.
Retired federal judge Michael Luttig is citing numerous legal rulings to knock down the pro-Trump claim that Vice President Mike Pence had any authority whatsoever to throw out electoral votes.
“There was no historical precedent,” Luttig said.
Basically, the vice president has no power at all when it comes to congressional counting of electoral votes, Luttig said, including recognition of seven slates of alternative electors put up by the Trump people.
“There was no basis in the Constitution or the laws of the United States AT ALL for the theory espoused by Mr. (John) Eastman,” Luttig said at one point. “At all. None.”
Luttig is not just any retired federal judge, by the way – he was once a rising conservative star who came very close to winding up on the Supreme Court.
President George W. Bush had Luttig on his short list, though he ultimately picked John Roberts and Samuel Alito for high court vacancies.
– David Jackson
Trump lawyers wanted Pence to not count Arizona’s electoral votes
A day before the Electoral College met to cast their votes on Dec. 14, 2020, Trump attorney Kenneth Chesebro sent a memo to Rudy Giuliani that Pence is charged with “making judgements about what to do if there are conflicting votes.”
Chesebro wanted Pence to not count Arizona’s votes (which JBiden won) in the joint session of Congress, “because there are two slates of votes.”
A group of Trump supporters in Arizona and other states had proclaimed themselves “the true electors for the state,” thus creating a group of official electors chosen by the state, and a group of “fake electors,” Cheney said in the hearing.
– Katherine Swartz
Pence ‘first instinct’ said he did not have power over 2020 election
A lawyer for Vice President Mike Pence said Pence had an immediate response to the idea that he could sway the 2020 election — that there is no way that the framers of the Constitution intended for him to have that power.
Greg Jacob, Pence’s general counsel, recounted Pence’s reaction and described the conversation that came before Jacob put together a legal memo for Pence that explained the obscure line in the Constitution describing the vice president’s role as well as the Electoral Count Act that laid out the process of counting votes.
“The vice president’s first instinct when he heard this theory was that there was no way that our framers – who abhorred concentrated power, who had broken away from the tyranny of George the third – would ever have put one person – particularly not a person who had a direct interest in the outcome because they were on the ticket for the election – in a role to have decisive impact in the outcome of the election,” Jacob said.
– Erin Mansfield
Pence started asking about his authority to count electors in early December
Greg Jacob, Pence’s former counsel in the vice president’s office, said he was first asked by Pence about the vice president’s role in the process to count electoral votes in early December.
Jacob recalled that Pence brought up former Vice President Al Gore using his gavel to strike down some Democratic lawmakers who objected to results in the 2000 election.
Jacob said that both he and Pence concluded that the vice president – in accordance with the Electoral Count Act of 1887 and the U.S. Constitution – lacks any role other than counting the votes certified by the Electoral College. He said the vice president does not have the authority to decide the presidency.
“There is no justifiable basis to conclude that the vice president has that kind of authority,” Jacob said.
– Joey Garrison
Pence lawyer: Eastman knew election scheme violated Electoral Count Act
Former Vice President Mike Pence’s counsel, Greg Jacob, told the committee that John Eastman admitted his scheme to have Pence single-handedly overturn the election violated the Electoral Count Act.
The 1887 statute sets the rules for how Congress counts votes in presidential elections. Jacob told the committee during his deposition Eastman conceded his argument was contrary to historical practice, would likely be rejected unanimously by the Supreme Court and violated the Electoral Count Act in four ways.
Former President Donald Trump held an Oval Office meeting Jan. 4 to pressure Pence, but the vice president refused to buckle. Committee investigators asked if Eastman ever acknowledged in front of Trump that his proposal would violate the law.
“I believe he did on the Fourth,” Jacob said in a videotaped deposition played Thursday.
– Bart Jansen
Rep. Pete Aguilar: Trump knew there was violence at the Capitol when he tweeted at Pence
Democratic Rep. Pete Aguilar from California said former President Donald Trump knew the Capitol was breached when he tweeted at former Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the 2020 election.
“You’ll also hear President Trump knew there was a violent mob at the Capitol when he tweeted at 2:24 p.m. that the Vice President did not have the quote, courage to do what needed to be done.” Trump tweeted then that Pence lacked the courage to “do what should have been done and protect our country and constitution.”
“Let me be clear,” said Aguilar. “Vice President Pence did the right thing that day. He stayed true to his oath to protect and defend the constitution.”
– Kenneth Tran
Rep. Pete Aguilar: Trump “latched on to a dangerous theory and would not let go”
In his opening statement of the hearing, Rep. Pete Aguilar, D-Calif., said that January 6th was not an isolated incident, that for weeks leading up to the attack Trump committed “illegal scheme and deception.”
Aguilar said the committee’s evidence proves that Trump knew he lost the election and then attempted to circumvent “the country’s most fundamental civic tradition: the peaceful transition of power.”
“The president latched on to a dangerous theory and would not let go because he was convinced it would keep him in office,” Aguilar said.
– Katherine Swartz
Aide says Pence told Trump “many times” he could not reject electoral votes
Vice President Mike Pence’s Chief of Staff told the committee that Pence had communicated directly to Trump that he did not have the legal or constitutional authority to reject electoral votes and thereby hand Trump the presidency.
Marc Short said in a videotaped interview with the committee that Pence had not only written a letter to Trump saying he had no such legal authority, but communicated the same thing to Trump “many times” and “very consistently.”
– Erin Mansfield
Pro-Trump rioters: Hang Mike Pence!
The committee played chilling videos of Jan. 6 rioters threatening Mike Pence when they learned he had refused to throw out electoral votes – a demand made by their patron, Donald Trump.
“I’m hearing reports that Pence caved!” one rioter said during a profane rant.
Another tape showed demonstrators chanting a harrowing theme: “Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!”
– David Jackson
Committee chair calls Pence rejection of Trump scheme ‘courageous’
Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., chairman of the Jan. 6 House Committee, kicked off the third hearing Thursday, saying testimony will reveal a pressure campaign waged by former President Donald Trump to reject the electoral votes confirming Joe Biden’s election victory.
“Donald Trump wanted Mike Pence to do something no other vice president has ever done. The former president wanted Pence to reject the votes and either declare Trump the winner or send the votes back to the states to be counted again.
“Mike Pence said no. He resisted the pressure. He knew it was wrong. We are fortunate for Mr. Pence’s courage.”
Thompson added: “When Mike Pence made it clear that he wouldn’t give into Donald Trump’s scheme, Donald Trump turned the mob on him.”
– Joey Garrison
Thompson: Committee wants to question Ginni Thomas
The chairman, Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., told reporters Thursday the committee wants to question Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, over her contacts with a lawyer who developed a plan to overturn the 2020 election.
The committee had earlier discussed pursuing Ginni Thomas because of text exchanges with former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows about fighting results of the 2020 election.
Ginni Thomas:House Jan. 6 panel discusses seeking testimony from Ginni Thomas about texts with Mark Meadows, but makes no decision
But the committee recently obtained emails between Ginni Thomas and John Eastman, a lawyer for former President Donald Trump who developed the plan for Vice President Mike Pence to single-handedly tip the election in favor of Trump, according to The Washington Post.
“We think it’s time that we, at some point, invite her to come talk to the committee,” Thompson told reporters, according to Axios reporter Andrew Solender.
– Bart Jansen
Trump raised money for ‘election defense’ and gave millions to his allies
A fundraising committee affiliated with former President Donald Trump raised millions of dollars for an “Official Election Defense Fund,” but the Jan. 6 committee said in its hearing Monday that it found no evidence that fund existed.
Most of the money went to a leadership fund called Save America that gave millions to Trump allies. For example, nonprofits affiliated with advisor Kellyanne Conway and chief of staff Mark Meadows received $1 million each. Campaigns for candidates running to unseat Trump foes in Congress received $5,000 each.
E. Danya Perry, who served as an assistant U.S. Attorney in the Southern District of New York from 2002 to 2013, said the case has the building blocks of a “pretty clear cut” case of wire fraud, a subject that is “bread and butter for federal prosecutors.”
– Erin Mansfield
Where did Trump’s ‘Election Defense Fund’ money go?:Trump raised millions to fight election fraud before Jan. 6. Here’s how that money was spent.
‘1776 Returns’ detailed plans to occupy buildings near Capitol
A document allegedly given to Proud Boys Chairman Henry “Enrique” Tarrio prior to the Jan. 6 insurrection lays out detailed plans to occupy more than half a dozen buildings surrounding the U.S. Capitol and describes tactics to be used by occupiers as they “Storm the Winter Palace.”
The full document titled “1776 Returns,” attached as an exhibit in a court filing Wednesday by Tarrio’s co-defendant Zachary Rehl, was described by one former federal prosecutor as “an absolutely devastating piece of evidence.”
Patrick Cotter, a former federal prosecutor in Chicago who has practiced criminal law for 40 years, said the “1776 Returns” document is a bombshell for prosecutors, assuming it can be verified. “The authors are clearly planning multiple, multiple felonies; they’re saying how they’re going to do it, and it’s all in service, apparently, to a broader crime, which is the sedition.” he said.
Read more on the document here.
– Will Carless
Pence in Cincinnati, Ohio, as Jan. 6 hearing focuses on him
Former Vice President Mike Pence will travel to Cincinnati on Thursday alongside Gov. Mike DeWine for a roundtable with members of Ohio’s natural gas and oil industry.
On the same day, the House Jan. 6 committee is expected to examine how former President Donald Trump pressured Pence to overturn the 2020 election.
The roundtable won’t be open to the public. It will be hosted by the Ohio Oil and Gas Energy Education Program. Pence will also be in town to raise money for Rep. Steve Chabot’s reelection campaign at the home of Nancy and David Aichholz, according to an invitation sent out by the GOP.
– Scott Wartman, Cincinnati Enquirer
Pence in Ohio: Mike Pence in Cincinnati today as Jan. 6 committee looks at how Trump pressured him
What time is the Jan. 6 hearing on Thursday?
The hearing is scheduled to begin at 1 p.m. ET.
How to watch the Jan. 6 hearing
USA TODAY will livestream the hearings here on USATODAY.com. The hearings have also been televised on C-Span and cable news networks.
Trump lawyer: Pence was calm when told about lack of election fraud
Alex Cannon, a Trump campaign lawyer, described a stoic Vice President Mike Pence compared to other Trump aides in response to the lack of election fraud.
Cannon found no evidence of enough voter fraud to change the election. At one point during a November 2020 meeting at the White House, Pence asked Cannon for an update.
“I don’t remember his exact words, but he asked me if we were finding anything, and I said that I was not personally finding anything sufficient to alter the results of the election,” Cannon said. “He thanked me. That was our interaction.”
Who has the Jan. 6 committee subpoenaed?:Who has been subpoenaed so far by the Jan. 6 committee?
One Trump lawyer to another: Get a great criminal defense lawyer
In a promotional tweet Tuesday for the hearing, the committee released video of Eric Hershmann, one of Trump’s lawyers, who described warning Eastman the day after the riot he should find a “great” defense lawyer.
Eastman had contacted Hershmann to chat about Georgia election results because he couldn’t reach other Trump aides. Hershmann questioned Eastman’s sanity and told him the only phrase he wanted to hear from Eastman from then on was “orderly transition” to the Biden administration.
“Eventually he said, ‘Orderly transition,'” Hershmann said. “I said, ‘Good, John. Now I’m going to give you the best free legal advice you’re ever getting in your life. Get a great f-ing criminal defense lawyer. You’re going to need it.’ Then I hung up on him.”
How Trump’s PAC spent money:Trump raised millions to fight election fraud before Jan. 6. Here’s how that money was spent.
Who is testifying? Former Pence counsel Greg Jacob
Greg Jacob, Pence’s counsel who researched the vice president’s power to reject electors when Congress counts presidential votes, told Eastman in an email Jan. 6, 2021, at 2:14 p.m. that his advice was “essentially entirely made up,” according to court records.
In an Oval Office meeting with Trump on Jan. 4, Pence stressed his “immediate instinct that there is no way that one person could be entrusted by the Framers to exercise that authority,” according to Jacob.
As the mob ransacked the Capitol two days later and Pence evacuated the Senate chamber, Jacob emailed Eastman to say “thanks to your bull—-, we are now under siege,” according to court records.
Bill Barr and Donald Trump:Bill Barr’s complicated relationship with Donald Trump: From vital advocate to damning witness
Who is Michael Luttig? Retired judge to testify
Eastman clerked for Michael Luttig, a retired judge for the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals who was rumored as a potential Supreme Court nominee during President George W. Bush’s administration.
The same day Trump pressured Pence and Jacob in the Oval Office, Pence’s personal lawyer, Richard Cullen, called Luttig to ask about Eastman. Luttig tweeted his disagreement with Eastman’s argument the morning of Jan. 5.
“The only responsibility and power of the Vice President under the Constitution is to faithfully count the electoral college votes as they have been cast,” Luttig said. “The Constitution does not empower the Vice President to alter in any way the votes that have been cast, either by rejecting certain of them or otherwise.”
Jan. 6 committee hearing schedule:Here’s what to expect at upcoming Jan. 6 hearings
Pence’s former chief of staff Marc Short says he sided with Constitution over Trump
Marc Short, Pence’s chief of staff, told the committee the vice president was proud of what was accomplished during the four years of the Trump administration, but sided with the Constitution in the election showdown.
“I think he was proud to have stood beside the president for all that has been done,” Short said in a videotaped deposition. “But I think he ultimately knew that his fidelity to the Constitution was his first and foremost oath.”
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